Older, wiser with Claire Lowson

As the state pension age increases and the figures for employment in those from 50 – 64 rise, we explore the opportunities and challenges this presents for businesses and older people in the workforce – particularly for women, who face unique challenges as they age.  We're joined by Claire Lowson, the founder of Supermenopause, and the woman behind the Age Positive division at the Brand consultancy Propaganda.

Claire is on a drive to ‘rebrand’ age, and specifically to shift employer's perspectives on what older employees can bring to the workplace. 

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Transcript

Claire Lowson: What is achievable at age. I think it's really important to have that visible and to have that pushed up because as we live longer and longer, things have to shift. Women are having more and more babies. Over 40 women and men will be able to stay in peak condition for longer because we're living longer. And that has to correlate. And I think that's really key to have an expectation of age that is massively shifted to what our parents would have had because we literally are staying younger longer.

Toby Brown: Hello. Welcome to Interaction’s Thrivalism. I'm Toby Brown Interaction’s Head of Marketing and this week I'm talking to Claire Lowson. Claire is the founder of SuperMenopause. She's the woman behind the Age Positive division at the brand consultancy Propaganda and she's on a drive to rebrand age, specifically to shift employees’ perspectives on what older employees can bring to the workplace. It was a real eye-opener of a chat for me. Some technical issues meant we had a few hiccups of sound quality at the beginning, but Claire's so interesting. I don't think you'll notice. 

Claire, Welcome Thrivalism So nice to have you on. We're here today to discuss some of the work you're doing around shifting perspective on an ageing workforce and some of the opportunities that present a business. It feels like conversations around ageing and ageism and the associated things have really gained momentum over the past few years. A Is that true or is that just what I'm reading, that I'm getting a bit older and B, if it is true, what's driving those conversations, do you think?

Claire Lowson: Well, hello, thanks for having me on. I'm keen to talk about this always. So no, I don't think it's that you're older, although it might be because I'm older too. But I think that the workforce is ageing. I mean, we know the population is ageing, so the workforce is ageing. And I've been listening to podcasts on this since 2012, so that's not a new knowledge. I think added to that, we've now got the big rising awareness of menopause and the issues that that presents in the workplace are the two things come together and you kind of get them dovetailing into one conversation. My take on it, which is intuitive, I guess as much as research is that we've now got a generation who have been well educated and in work since they left education. Perhaps unusually, I think the boomers, you had a lot more people staying at home then this generation. So because you've got people who've been in work for their whole career, they will stomach less a fall off of opportunity or status at a certain age, I think. So. I think that's what's happening. People are kind of starting to really stand up and feel that it's wrong and they are looking to what can be done about it. I think that's possibly compounded by some shifts from COVID to where a lot of people exited the workforce or were exited from the workforce. So again, you've got another element there coming into the mix. It's probably a combination of those things. It's the right time for change.

Toby Brown: Yeah, and one of the things that I found interesting, some of the stuff you are talking about and some your written work, is that the correlation between the younger people coming to the work force and the older people in terms of they share some overlapping motivations and a willingness to discuss topics which maybe a few generations ago we wouldn't have. So what have you seen in that space? What are some of the similarities between the younger and the older people in the workforce?

Claire Lowson: Yeah, I think that's really interesting, both the similarities and the opposite. So I think it was certainly way back in 2012, Some of the work that I was listening to then made the point that the kind of FIFO workforce were looking for meaning and purpose. They weren't looking for power and status or income so much anymore and that they were at that point in life of wanting a degree of self-actualisation to really feel that they were contributing and giving something back then the kind of Gen Z people coming through now, so younger than 25 are definitely far more savvy about mental health. They also exhibit with much poorer mental health than any other generation, which is shocking and probably related to their being born into social media. They, yes, are prepared to bring kind of taboo conversations into the workplace. They're much more aware of gender, gender fluidity, Some of those issues, they want work life balance. So there is an overlap. I think where that becomes interesting for work is the is the difference too. So because that generation are infinitely more kind of digital savvy, they can educate the older workforce around that. And we also know that's directly relevant to marketing, particularly marketing to younger people. And equally because of this, it's proven that they like resilience, that there's a degree of kind of some feeling of them being owed something from having lost, you know, years with COVID quite pivotal years for them.

There's proven to be some lack of kind of emotional intelligence around some of this. You know, they're not wanting to work full time. For example, they're coming into the workforce already saying that I don't want to work full time or want a three day a week role, which is challenging for somebody just maybe in a kind of position where they need to learn and train and get up to speed. So there are loads of things going on, but you can completely see that youth is lost on the young, because when you're older, you have experience, you have resilience. And I think if you pair those two things, what the older generation know, what the younger generation they were, they're both strong and where they're both weaker and kind of start to combine those, then you're only going to get gains. And as the workforce ages, it's important that we do keep those people in the workplace. But equally those people stay connected and valid and in-tune and can kind of bring up the workforce coming up beneath them. So real benefits, I think, in both generations sharing their experience and building a new kind of way of working together.

And I think, you know, it's important that the older generation understand the younger generation in terms to connect with that generation both in work and in the consumer marketplace and vice versa. It's impossible for a brand to talk to the 50 plus marketplace, which we know is massive. Forbes has said that the over 50 woman is the super consumer. She's holds 97% purchasing power for a household. These women are not disappearing. They're actually, you know, they are the spenders and they're discerning and they care about what they spend on. And yet brands are just not marketed to them. But it is impossible to market to them if you don't have people within your workforce who have those insights. So filling your workforce up with the young is not ever going to help you market to the biggest demographic that there is to market to and certainly the biggest untargeted demographic to date. So, you know, you can completely see what is needed there in bringing I think in bringing those two kind of areas together just quite by chance. We had a presentation at lunchtime about Gen Z and it was an eye opener to me. I mean, some of the things that would come across like, you know, I've got no idea about some of this language that they're using. And it is really critical.

Toby Brown: What are some examples of some Gen Z language?

Claire Lowson: Things like, you know, these kind of trends like Cottagecore …

Toby Brown: I definitely feel like you're just making it worse to baffle me.

Claire Lowson: I know I can't remember them now. I've answered the presentation, but really fascinating. I think some of the stats as well that TikTok’s the biggest search engine that they use, they're not using Google. I think that's being disrupted by people using Amazon before Google as well. In many cases, that's all generations. So there is real disruption going on there. But certainly I'm not a Tik Tok user. We catch up with all these things later, don't we?

Toby Brown: But I'm not planning to catch up with that…

Claire Lowson: The need to be able to connect and add value to what each other are doing. So I know from my experience in work that a digital presentation led by a Gen Z would be absolutely right in terms of his or her understanding of the marketplace and how to put that content across to the client and how to build that strategy for the client. A client will not be Gen Z, so the client, the C-suite client listening to that won't be Gen Z and will be really sceptical of that, that kind of person's experience to deliver that, especially if it's a woman, a young woman. So I think that's interesting and that's what you have to have. If I were in that meeting with that person, then I would have to add cloud to her capacity to, you know, be plausible.

Toby Brown: As a generational translator, essentially.

Claire Lowson: Yeah. I mean, mad, isn't it? Because I was there. I mean, it doesn't feel that long ago. Maybe it looks like it is, but not that long ago I was also presenting to hundreds of people in my twenties with a lot of men around me, C-suite men from the client, but in one case, very, very worried about whether their audience would think I was too young to be credible. And that's the challenge of being a woman in the workplace, I think, you know, and whatever point of entry for a woman, wherever you are that are challenges, you're either too young or too old to pregnant or not. You know, it's like there are a lot of issues. 

Toby Brown: Well, yeah, I mean, we're going to move on to those issues in a sec, specifically the menopause. But I guess before we narrow down to that, what are some of the dangers saying [00:10:00] you're running an organisation or a business with a decent contingent of people who are slightly older in part of your workforce? What are some of the dangers you face if you just leave them to get on with it and fade quietly away? If you're not trying to engage that demographic in your workforce.

Claire Lowson: Well, I think would you leave them to get on with it? I think the issues are more that they're not being seen. And I don't think this is a gender thing, I know typically men struggle at this age as much as women in terms of, you know, the midlife thing feeling like, you know, if I'm not going really where I, where I want to. Now, it's probably too late to really get there. So I've definitely heard cases from people in HR saying it's not women knocking on my door at this age that are really struggling. It's men because maybe they've got university fees to pay or they've got children in private education and they suddenly wake up and think I'm 50 or whatever, and I'm not actually going to become the person I thought I was going to be. But I can't leave here now because, you know, where else would I go? And I'm not going to achieve what I need here. So a degree of, I guess, the kind of doldrums at that age group. What do we do with that? Good question. I think that requires some thought for women. I think that the challenges are slightly different because I think women are typically, you know, in society, not just in work, become much less visible over a certain age.

Claire Lowson: You know, your attractiveness your power is linked to. Well, the two things are linked together. So, you know, once you there was the big case of the American TV presenter who was fired recently when she'd gone grey after COVID, a lot of people stopped dyeing their hair during COVID. This particular woman looks incredible. She's completely groomed, glossy, looks incredible, but she was made redundant. And after the point of going grey and there are emails discussing her, why is she gone? Grey Who let her make that decision? That's a terrible decision because she was a TV anchor. So I think there, you know, and in the UK we've got our own pattern of women not making it beyond a certain age strictly Come Dancing. Arlene Phillips You know, you've got you've got kind of plenty of old men continuing in that role, but not the women. So I think there are different things at play in terms of a perception of a woman's capacity at that age without adding in menopause. And then some of the things that they personally will be facing. And certainly this first came menopause was first brought to me by a very big client, Kimberly Clark, who had an interim leader,. I who was going through menopause and I was working within the brand team and the brand team came to me to say, We just don't know what to do. You know, if she's if she's having a hot flush when we're just about to kind of put her on stage for a really big presentation, what do we do? What do we do? Should she go on? Should she not? And that's really interesting. And that that debate was now probably about seven years ago and there was nothing happening and it wasn't discussed. You'd obviously hope now to get to a point where you could say somebody could go on stage and say, you know, so-and-so will be with us shortly, Take a break, have a look on your phone. 5 minutes, meet back here and we'll be ready to start. You know, so you would if it's kind of there's a degree of acceptance and trust within the business, you would be able to manage it like that. But all of these things are coming into play that obviously for a woman going through some of the physical symptoms that stress or a public appearance like that might exacerbate, then it becomes challenging and it becomes front of mind. And that's all good reason not to let women be in senior roles.

Toby Brown: So can we dig into some of those things that happened? And for a start, when we started discussing the menopause you corrected me in my terminology because my definition was wrong. I think. So just clarify the terminology for me again.

Claire Lowson: Yeah. So, so the word menopause actually is just one day. So a woman has her menopause. That is the day that is 12 months after her last period. So when you've gone 12 months without having a period, you're in menopause. So that was a wobbly term because I think we use it to be a catch. All the real issues for women are around perimenopause, which starts typically in the mid forties. So around 44 or 45, 46. That is when the hormones start to change and to drop off, and that is when they it can wreak havoc on your life. Most people, a lot of people haven't heard that term. It's becoming much more common now and then people don't understand it. And that's the problem not just for women but for GPS, because it's known to be quite poorly educated. Even for GPS, this doesn't play a big part in basic GP training. So depending on your GPS interest or your practice's interest, you may or may not get somebody who understands it. So really, at that point, when you are in perimenopause, it might be that you have symptoms like anxiety, brain fog, forgetfulness, low energy, low mood, and you would not know what was going on. So that can often mean that a GP then in dealing with that woman, prescribes antidepressants. Antidepressants don't work for hormonally driven changes. So you're in a double whammy. You're thinking, what on earth is going on with me? I've never, ever had mental health challenges before. Suddenly I'm finding I've got mental health challenges. I've been prescribed antidepressants. They're not working, so I must be seriously bad. And so it goes on and it's a downward cycle.

Toby Brown: And I guess in parallel to that, you're probably a position in your working life where you're really experienced. You're probably in the sort of role you've always wanted to be in. You're almost at the peak of your abilities in some senses, and then getting all of that pulled back on the other side by the issues you've mentioned and how women tend to react to that in the workplace when perimenopause hits, what the patterns you see in behaviours and that happen after that.

Claire Lowson: I think a lot of the stats show that women, you know, they take more sick leave, they don't go for promotion, the lack of confidence becomes a real thing, generally not feeling up to the job, questioning whether they're up to the job, which may then drive leaving. So statistics show a vast amount of women leaving, a lot of people, you know, putting in extra sick days and certainly not going for promotion. So all of those really damaging both to her career and to the business. And certainly, you know, if you think of the point which she would then leave, if she did leave, yeah, probably at the highest point yet of her earning capacity with pension payments going in, you know, there's a lot to lose if you lose because of something that could be helped. Certainly a GP that I work with who's the menopause specialist says that when people come to her she runs a private clinic as well as their NHS work, because the waiting lists are so long with the NHS. When people come to her in the private clinic, she says, I mean she does this, she works me on corporate work all the time and says, you know, to these corporates, these women are broken. By the time they're over me, they're broken, they've gone, you know, they've lived with us for so long, so it's not good enough and things have to change. And I think that is a mix of, you know, public perceptions shifting and just more education. I mean, education for the women, because you're obviously able to tackle something better if you know what's coming and you're more able to ask your GP for the right help if you know what's going on. And I think that's generally the advice given you need to go to the GP and tell the GP what you need rather than what you would normally do, which is to go to the GP and let the GP dictate the next action. It's definitely the opposite way around in this.

Toby Brown: Obviously it costs a huge amount for a business to replace somebody at that level and there's a lot of reasons why businesses should engage you in menopause as an issue. At menopause, you see that as an opportunity to like power up your business and level up essentially. So talk me through your approach to that and how you view that and how you communicate that to the businesses you work with.

Claire Lowson: So it can work in many ways. I think we would say that because of this, the woman over 50 is that is the fastest growing workplace demographic in the UK. So as we've said before, not people that you can afford to lose. So my feeling on it within the work that I do is a twofold thing for a business, is to look at it as an internal issue, an opportunity, an opportunity, and to look at it as an external issue and opportunities. So we also know that this, you know, this woman represents a massive consumer marketplace. So if your business is selling products and services that could be targeted or signposted more effectively to this audience, then you need to be tapping into your internal insight to understand that properly so it becomes a virtuous circle. And to help that happen, I think inside the business you then shine a light on this. So for me, it's not about having a menopause policy or some kind of stuff that the woman has to dig around on, on the Internet to try and find the policy or the guidance, to try and find someone to talk to in HR or in DNI. It's not an HR issue. It's a business issue. And I think any kind of business worth their salt now would be looking at, you know, what opportunities are presented to us by thinking of this age group differently, men and women thinking of, you know, shining a light on these women who we want to keep.

Claire Lowson: We know that gender-balanced boards are successful for business. McKinsey did research about six years ago that showed that of the nine most powerful leadership behaviours, women naturally do, seven of them more. So women naturally exhibit seven out of the nine top leadership behaviours. So women in leadership are really key to a business and [00:20:00] you can't afford to have them drop off at that most impactful point. So I would say on a very basic level in a company, it's something that you want to campaign around. So yes, you want all your policies to be there, you want the physical adjustments to be there, you want the kind of mental health support to be there, all those things in the background, in the foreground, I would be running an internal comms campaign around this building, your employer brand around this, you know, about the opportunities for all ages. And certainly when considering some of the challenges of Gen Z that we've discussed, some of the challenges of millennials who are facing burnout, there is currently quite a short life span. Four women in work and they have to pack a lot into that because firstly you have to prove that they're mature enough and grown up enough to do the job, and then they have to kind of get to a certain level before they have a baby and then they've got to have their children and then come back and perform again and then perimenopause hit.

Claire Lowson: So it's a lot to pack in. And I think that by businesses recognising that you're on a constant upward trajectory, there isn't a glass ceiling. We are really spotlighting that age. You will come into your power. It makes the whole process expansive for all age groups and it takes the pressure off those younger age groups who are currently struggling and it gives them space and scope to work out where they fit in and what value they add. And at the same time, you are then starting to think about whether your industry could be innovating into this marketplace, which is completely underserved, whether you're a bank or whether you're a clothing manufacturer or whether you're a food manufacturer. There are opportunities within this marketplace, and I'm being approached now by food brands, by kind of chemist, by ingredient brands. There's all kinds of people that recognise that, you know, targeting an ageing population is really important. And McKinsey put out a big study a couple of months ago about the fact that people are living now the longest they've ever lived, and they're also spending the biggest proportion of their life in poor health. That's a massive shift really. You know, we can't have that. The world can't be having greater longevity. But the biggest percentage of life in poor health, we can't sustain that. And it's not it's not good for anybody.

Claire Lowson: So and then I think of the impact of that on the coming generations, on health services, on everything. So I think in terms of a marketplace, we know it's there in terms of a need to do things differently. We know it's there. And certainly McKinsey were using COVID as an example of, you know, Yes, well, the world has always said that it can't pivot fast, but we know it can. And this is the next area where it has to pivot fast to see that, you know, we have an ageing population, we've got to serve, service them better in terms of education, in terms of products and services, in terms of the way that they're perceived. And we know that countries that really revere and respect age have healthier older people and have great longevity. It pushes back against that because of course, if you feel more and more value, the more and more power you can do very well. And that applies to the workplace as well. But if you feel like you kind of start to realise that you're a bit invisible, you know, all kinds of things like we just said, you know, suddenly the whole conversation is around digital and Tik Tok and this and that, that you kind of it's not your natural habitat. You can quickly start to feel a bit redundant. So, you know, it's really about marrying the value of all these different points in life, really.

Toby Brown: Looking, say, on a CEO of an organisation over 1,000 people. And I've decided, right, this is an issue we're going to engage with. What would be some really practical steps? What would be some practical considerations that could help some people every day?

Claire Lowson: I think talking about it, setting up forums for people to talk about it. I know a lot of people say that as soon as something's on the agenda, people breathe a bit of a sigh of relief that they can actually talk about it. So starting the conversation is good. Educating the workforce is good. We would advocate for all-organisation education so that line managers, men, younger women all know how to talk about it. That's helpful. Educating women about what's happening to them, of course, is massive because a lot of them don't know. And in fact, every single corporate event that I do, there's usually a doctor in the room and it's usually the doctor that's hit with all the questions people have. And people ask the same questions over and over and over. And I've been in these things for several years now, and I think, oh my goodness, people are still asking these same questions. The questions that can be answered in a variety of Facebook groups that, you know, you could Google, but they're being asked because I'm in an echo chamber where we're all talking about this. But of course, you realise over and over again that the vast majority of women of this age and in work don't know about it. So I think education is key. And then, you know, setting up some kind of daring group within the business to, to take this on and think of it as a point of innovation.

Claire Lowson: If we can think of this as a lever to do things differently, and that's for the women and for the organisations that I would say, you know, there are points in life when you really have the opportunity to take stock and do things differently. And certainly this is a good age at which to do that for men and women, but. Of course, for women, you're going through a physical transformation. It is worth thinking about how I hit this at my best. And so we would advocate for women of the right age that, you know, you do want to retain and keep being given the opportunity to get some get onto a coaching program, a transformation program that really helps them, you know, get into their best physical and mental space. And then you can feed that back into the organisation. So you would get a kind of virtuous loop of intelligence because then they might be saying, well, actually, look, we're exactly the business that could be talking to this marketplace differently. And like as I think that's relevant, whatever your business, you know, there are interesting opportunities to engage with this consumer audience differently as well. Or a B2B, I mean, you know, it's relevant both ways.

Toby Brown: Yeah. We as Interaction design and build offices. What would the perfect workspace if you could design one from scratch to be super inclusive of the needs of the everyone we've just talked about, what would that look like for you?

Claire Lowson: I think for me, you know, perfect workplace is the perfect workplaces for everyone, aren't they? So definitely you want access to fresh air, you want access to water, you want access to loos. You want a culture where it's free. People can move around. Women of this age have definitely really welcomed flexible working, working from home if you want to. If you've not slept all night, you're definitely going to prefer to work at home. And equally, people like being back in the office and having that kind of interaction. I think cultures of inclusivity are cultures where people come together and talk. For me, I'm sure you feel the same. You know, a good workspace has as much space for, you know, collaboration and shared working as it does separate desks. I worked for a company called Imagination that were a great business that were ahead of their game, really in terms of design. And, you know, a time when Pixar was really on the map and Google's offices were all in the press, and we had a building that was an old school, and it was built across a playground effectively, but the playground had been left open. So we had a kind of five storey atrium space with nothing in it. Most people would fill it up and put desks on it because you're going to get your square foot value back. But there were then metal bridges that criss-crossed across the atrium space and that we did have to cross because water machines were on one side, lose one other coffee was in one place, meeting rooms were on the other.

Then we had a bar slash lunch slash restaurant breakfast downstairs. So in that and we had a gym in that space. It was a lot of walking around. Now that's very different to the kind of office where, you know, you lose a right by your desk, the water coolers right by your desk. God forbid that you wander around or talk to anybody or mix with any other departments. And I've worked in that that their office imagination and another company which I won't mention close by similar size building, similar air of London, similar number of employees. But the second one, you went up in a lift, the door was open, the reception desk was there with the number of your floor. So you knew going to floor four? Yes, that's floor four. It was then completely intimidating to step out of the lift onto that floor and walk to see the person that you were looking for, because you never set foot onto that floor normally. And it was just packed with desks. And I found that it was a real learning, you know, to see the difference. So I am kind of all for this idea of like Pixar put all their loos together and everybody had a Segway scooter to get there because, you know, I mean, anything that drives inter-generational or into team collaboration and discussion. 

Toby Brown: It's also a conversation to be had that we have occasionally run the new sort of gendered areas that go into stuff like the temperature of the building at all times because men and women have got different temperatures they comfortable up and as a default is often the most comfortable temperature for men, stuff like that. So once you get into those little areas, there's lots to unpick, isn't there? It's amazing. How do you when you have individual because you do coaching as well from the menopause when an individual comes to and we'll [00:30:00] wrap up in a couple of seconds but just really good to get an idea of help them reframe that on an individual basis. How do you sort of talk people through that on a 1 to 1 level.

Claire Lowson: I think it's about helping them look at it differently. I mean, if somebody comes in, they're definitely feeling that, oh gosh, I'm getting old. It's about reframing it. I mean, I you know, I've had my children very late in life. And there is a statistic that says when you've had a child over 40, you're 60% more likely to live to be 100. And I guess that's why is that because you your aspirations change. You need to be around longer for them. You're generally mixing with people perhaps younger than you. You just work. On a slightly different level, I guess, in terms of relation to to where you sit. So there's something there about your expectations at age. And I would always push back on people who are starting to narrow their expectations or fall into the habit of, well, you know, I am 50. So what to expect, I think is about raising the bar on what's achievable. And people like I know there's a lot of pushback. Some people say it's not right that Davina McCall is posing in a bikini and, you know, calling everyone to join up to her fitness program. But equally, I would look at her and think, well, that's really good because there's nobody else of that age for me to look at.

Claire Lowson: I mean, yeah, we see role models around us all the time when we're younger. There's nothing when you're older. And I it's not about the physical look, but the fitness, you know, what is achievable at age. I think it's really important to have that visible and to have that pushed up because as we live longer and longer, things have to shift. Women are having more and more babies. Over 40 women and men will be able to stay in peak condition for longer because we're living longer. And that has to correlate. And I think that's really key to have an expectation of age that is massively shifted to what our parents would have had because we literally are staying younger longer. There's also a very big difference in your kind of chronological age and your biological age. So, you know, you and you and somebody else of the same age, one of you could measure in having a biological age much younger than the other because of lifestyle issues, because of genetic issues. So I suppose it's about having a more positive and aspirational scope for yourself. It's not going to be the same for everybody.

Toby Brown: Like reminding me that of I went to a 60 year old's birthday party with my mum, who I think she just hit 80 and the 60 year olds were all in cardigans and all quite dowdy. And my mum had dyed her hair and had big gold jewellery on and stuff. About an hour into it she grabbed my arm and said, get me away from these old people. I was like, You're 20 years older than I am, but it's just an attitude of your age should be like, isn't it? And a mindset.

Claire Lowson: Whereas for myself, that's really key. My analogy is always that, you know, the guy when the first guy, Roger Bannister, ran the four minute mile, people said it wasn't achievable, but then he did it and now loads of people do it. You know, it's about perception. Once you know that something's achievable, you achieve it. If someone's telling you all the time or society's telling you all the time you're old at 50 or you're old at 60, then you will be. And so I think really that's where brands have a massive role to play in playing back all the kind of glamour and sexy positives and power and status and greatness of age because it's all there. It's just that we don't brand it effectively. And I know that there's a real backlash to some of this, certainly with menopause with people saying, oh, this is kind of men and washing, you know, it's exploitative. I completely disagree. I think it's about women being visible, older people being visible, having choice, having we need choice because we have different needs at this age. And, you know, I always think, you know, when a woman is pregnant, we serve them well and they are, you know, targeted for different products and different supplements and different all kinds of different things that they may or may not need. And we don't see that as an issue. We recognise that change menopause is just the same. It's a biological change which drives an emotional change. And you know, there is value in making sure that all of the symptoms are met and serviced, all of the emotional challenges are met and service. And as a general area of branding that we rebrand age to be what it is, you know, the greatest place to be.

Toby Brown: I think that is a lovely note to wrap up on. Clare, thank you so much. If people want to find out more about what you do, where can they find you? Where should they head?

Claire Lowson: They can head to me via LinkedIn. That's probably the best place. Yeah, LinkedIn might be the best place to find me.

Toby Brown: Perfect. We'll put a link to that on your show notes if you want. You see a whole, two or three people will come and click on your profile. Thank you so much for your time. I'm sorry about the technical delays at the beginning, but it's been such an interesting conversation for me. So thank you so much.