Meaning in the Metaverse with Dan Pritchard, MD of Astley Media

Although noise around the metaverse is growing. It’s still hard to pin down exactly what it is; is it an ecosystem, a platform or a product?  
How will it affect our day-to-day lives and relationships? More relevantly to us, how will organizations and businesses use it in the workplace?  
Will the public even like it or is it just the next Google Glass? 
What are the opportunities it brings – and what are some of the potential downfalls?  

No-one really knows. And neither do we. 


Show notes

Dan Pritchard on LinkedIn

Astley Media

Tech South West

Gymshark in the Metaverse

Nick Clegg in the Metaverse

Codices, a Falmouth Launchpad success 

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Transcript

Dan Pritchard: You don't actually want to recreate what you've got already. It could be something very different – and we don't even know what that might be yet.

Toby Brown: Hello and welcome to Thrivalism, Interaction’s podcast on all things workplace and workplace culture. Today, I'm joined by Dan Pritchard, head honcho of Astley Media and Connector in Chief of the Tech South West Network. We're going to have a quick ramble through the metaverse together, so it's probably best to start with the basics. Have I done you justice in that intro? Is that how you would introduce yourself or I've got

Dan Pritchard: Is it all wrong? I think that's how I’d introduce myself both in the universe and in the metaverse. Yeah, that's right.

Toby Brown: Perfect, it applies across both. So let's just dive into the metaverse. What is it?

Dan Pritchard: What is it? Well, I think it's yeah, that's a great question. And it's evolving all the time and we're not there yet. But if you think about the platforms we use, the worlds we inhabit and particularly digital natives, the way it’s second nature, you know, Minecraft, you know, everyone will know it and either use. Fortnite, that is a game, but it's also a world. And then you have things like Roblox, which are whole platforms where people go in there and build games, build spaces for people to hang out. 

So if you imagine layer upon layer of different gaming companies, that's where it all started and others building these platforms, which then become a space you step into. So Facebook, Twitter is 2D. You're there. It's text, it's video. It's image. But you're staring through a screen. You know, you turn into that 3D space and suddenly you're in something which potentially is part of the metaverse. And of course, we're a long way away from it all being joined up, which is what Facebook want, you know, hence the change to Meta. And they want us all to flock there. But already they're building bridges between these different worlds. So I suppose the metaverse is that state you get to when they're all kind of kind of connected so that you can be in these different platforms and it's seamless and it's 3D and it's all there as one big mass. I suppose that's a way of me trying to get my head around it.

Toby Brown: It sounds sort of beautiful and awful at the same time. In terms of time frame, because obviously, you know, it's nice at the moment and people are still really struggling to create parts of it. How far away do you think that joined up ecosystem of platforms is?

Dan Pritchard: I think it's years and years. If you think about the internet, you know, the early versions of the internet were very different to what came later. So this is part of Web 3.0, you know, we're talking 5-10 years, probably more like 10 before it feels like this is happening for real, but that doesn't mean there's not going to be versions and elements of it. You know, the big thing is, is this a move to centralisation, you know, come and join us, you know, let's all be over here? Or is it decentralisation? Because actually, no people don't want that and we want to create our own world. Do the gamers want to hang out alongside the work conference, people alongside the brands, all in one kind of multifaceted, multi-layered metaverse? And I think it's big questions about that because as marketers, we know audiences want different things. We can't all chuck them into one space, right?

Toby Brown: Yeah. And to continue that thought, the internet tends to move towards fragmentation by its own nature, doesn't it? You find people who share your same interests and opinions, and you find platforms like Facebook that reward engaging with those people, especially when they get a bit toxic and sets your dopamine triggers off: do you see the eventual nature of it heading towards more fragmentation? Or do you see it being a unifying platform that can bring the internet back together?

Dan Pritchard: I don't know. I think it's a real big question. And why are young people flocking to Tik Tok and ignoring Facebook - because it meets their needs. It's where their friends are, it's where their parents are not. It's where they can do their stuff. So in a metaverse, if you've got the worlds of entertainment, sport, leisure, learning, commerce, gaming, how is that going to manifest itself in a sort of joined up way? That is absolutely huge, and I don't think any of us know the answer yet. But what we do know is that Google, Microsoft, Facebook are going to spend millions and billions are trying to kind of create their version of it or be the platform or be part of the part of the metaverse foundation. And they have big budgets. They have, you know, lots of reasons to hook people in in terms of consumers, but also brands so that, you know, I'm sure it's going to swell and grow and that whole centralising piece is going to happen. But at the same time, you're going to have forces pushing against that, and that's the bit that's going to play out. It's going to be really fascinating for brands.

Toby Brown: I think in terms of previous things to look at that share the same sort of shape and feel as the Metaverse, AR and VR and things like that have been bubbling away for ages as the next big thing. Immersive media, they've never really taken off because they probably don't particularly scratch a consumer urge or answer a question. They don't really answer a problem that people tend to face. And when I think about the Metaverse, I think what problem is it solving? And I don't really have an answer to that. It feels like it's being foisted on us to some extent by those companies you talk about who have got a vested interest in turning a profit over the long term. So what consumer problem does it solve? What do you think it will be good for?

Dan Pritchard: It's really interesting point and because it is so diverse, it's so big, you know, the metaverse is potentially everything and anything, isn't it? And it doesn't have to be constrained by the boundaries of how we exist in real life, I suppose. And in the 2D way where we do a lot of things and one of the problems is a lot of the barriers you know, you mentioned AR and VR, you know, the kind of there are lots of reasons not to get. It's clunky at the moment and you have to put in glasses or headsets and all these kind of things. It hasn't worked in those terms, but I think the problem this is going to solve is going to be a range of different things, potentially. And you think the digital kind of shove we've had the last couple of years because of COVID, you know, we've all embraced digital communications in whole new ways. You fast forward that to how people want to hang out and interact and live their lives, you know, learning. You know, I think it's easy to think about the brands and the marketing aspect, but also that, you know, metaverse for learning.

If you're a history teacher walking down the streets of Rome with 20 kids in the metaverse, you know, that is an interesting concept, and they'll be companies thinking about that. They'll be entrepreneurs thinking about that. And there'll be people with passions thinking about that kind of stuff, you know, and you take that across every sphere, you know, in terms of entertainment, go into the Live Aid gig in 1985, I'm doing it for real in the metaverse, standing on stage and being in the band for real in the metaverse. You know, that is interesting concepts and that is all doable. And there becomes monetary value to some of these things in terms of the commercial side. 

So I don't know about the problems it's solving, but you look at the move, the digital move, we've gone, you know, through every decade, every decade, and it's about platforms and interaction and creativity, which is the exciting bit, although it's very scary as well. You know, for people like me who've been around a long time!

Toby Brown: A little bit about that, that element about the teaching is really interesting because that's not an aspect of it I've considered. But when I think back to my geography lessons at school, we're essentially watching a VHS video on some Welsh coal mine 12 times in a row. To be able to have those immersive experiences instead will be really compelling. I guess I've thought about much more in terms of entertainment and gaming and things like that, so there's obviously a lot more to it than I've sort of chipped away at, I think.

Dan Pritchard: I think I think so because I think every vertical needs to think about it, isn't it, in terms of the gaming and entertainment will lead the way for sure. But education, training

Toby Brown: And pornography, let's not forget pornography.

Dan Pritchard: Well, absolutely, yeah. And this is one of the dangers. And already, you know, Facebook and others are facing challenge about some of these virtual worlds they've got and allegations of stalking, grooming, all these kind of things. So it's going to be a Wild West part of this as well, which is really important.

Toby Brown: Roblox that you mentioned earlier. There's a lot of issues aren't there with sort of non-safe material being put into that little universe?

Dan Pritchard: Yeah. And of course, brands, you know, the world we were working, those brands are going to really think about their reputation about when is the time to dive into this, because they won't want to be associated with anything like that, of course.

Toby Brown: There's a couple of points in what you just said that I'd like to pick up on. I'll go back to one of the first ones, which is about entertainment being driven through the pandemic by people needing those online experiences in lieu of real life ones. Now the pandemic is hopefully ceasing up a bit. Do you think that the Metaverse almost missed its chief wave that it could have ridden during the pandemic when people were hungry for experiences like that? And that was real. Face to face interaction is creeping back into life and real gigs and real concerts. Maybe there'll be a swing the other way away from digital back into shared experiences

Dan Pritchard: In the real world. Yeah. And I think I think for now there will be that desire to kind of connect person to person for sure. But that doesn't mean the Metaverse isn't already, you know, isn't going to happen. And you know, it's going to happen in some way or other. It's just what kind of format it's going to take because Roblox was founded like 2004. So I think it's ridiculous and it's like 50 million users every day now. And that's just one little world really where people are doing their thing. And that is, you know, Facebook and TikTok and Instagram. That's what they are. We're world builders. Humans are world builders, and we will keep doing that and we'll keep using the technology to push it and push it and push it. I think that's the inevitable bit, how it turns out, that's the unknown bit. And you know, what we have done is got over some hurdles around how we communicate and how we engage digitally. That's for sure. 

Toby Brown: And the second point from what he said was about, we sort of touched on it briefly. But policing, when you've got interconnected platforms, who polices it, whose responsibility is it to make sure the metaverse is a safe place for people like us? Obviously, the answer is a long way off from being actually known. But what are your thoughts on how that might work?

Dan Pritchard: Yeah, absolutely. And the Big Tech platforms, if they want to be part of this and be part of the, we are providing the metaverse for you. They have to be part of that, you know, regulators. And across countries, and we already know regulation lags behind the reality of where tech is. So, you know, we do not want to see that again, it's high risk. It's not right for the consumers, for people using it, and it's not good for brands and brands won't want to be part of that space if it becomes this place where that can happen. So yeah, I mean, there's no easy solution to that, is it? But it will be on the minds of and there'll be teams trying to sort of understand that. But it will be a forever game. You'll be a forever game because there be people who want to use these platforms for their own devices. And, you know, we can't stop people wanting to do that and then verges onto the criminal gangs and crypto and all the other things that's going to be in the mix around this. So it's going to be another step on, isn't it, in terms of regulation and charters and the tangible things? But it doesn't mean it doesn't mean it's going to stop it happening, but it means we've got to learn the lessons from the past and some of these platforms and problems that we've had.

Toby Brown: We're obviously really interesting the impact on culture in the workplace and how the metaverse might be used for businesses and stuff like that. We've seen a few hybrid Gymshark did a hybrid meeting in the Metaverse, which seems to gather a lot of traction on social. I don't know if you saw the interview with Nick Clegg in the metaverse, where he was trying to drink a coffee, but because the Oculus can't scan the coffee cup, that was invisible. So he was apologising for his weird movement. All a bit chaotic, but really worth a look. But what do you see the impact on the metaverse being in how we work and the ways you work and communicate in the workspace?

Dan Pritchard: I think that working in that collaborating piece is an area where it's going to charge ahead, whether it's all going to sit in a space quite soon, where gaming is going on and other things, I'm not so sure, but we are on that path. You know, I've been to kind of virtual conferences now where I've walked around virtually as an avatar and stepped into conversations and seen the branding and seen the interaction. And yeah, it's early days. It's a bit clunky, but it's happening. You know, we've got over that digital barrier around how we communicate. So I think the work part of it is going to is going to forge ahead, for sure. But if you, you know, tech southwest, we run lots of events on HopIn that we're trying to make it as immersive as possible, but it's still essentially a 2D experience. So, you know, recently the tech talent summit that you were involved with and Interaction were involved with, you know, you imagine that in a 3D world, walking around from session to session, going up to panels after having a conversation, connecting, forming a little informal breakout. You can do it 2D and you can do it 3D. While you'd really take off when it's easier and better, you know that's the ultimate test, isn't it?

Toby Brown: It sort of sounds good. But then it also sounds awful at the same time, I'm not sure if anyone really wants that.

Dan Pritchard: But that's what people said about the internet. That's what people said about games consoles. That's what people said about phones in your pocket, bugging you all the time. And how many hours do you spend a day on your phone? You know, each of these new kind of steps forward with all the good and all the bad that that brings. They still have happened. 

Toby Brown: Henry Ford quote, isn't it when he's talking about selling cars? And it's like, if I ask people what they wanted, they’d ask for a faster horse and somebody has to come along and give them something that's entirely new before people realise that they want it. So maybe I just look at it like faster horses? 

Dan Pritchard: Know. You know, if you've got kids, I've got 17 year old who's doing a game development course, and he grew up with Minecraft, you know, and he also grew up with Lego at the same time. So, he's doing both. He's immersed in these virtual worlds, but he's also aligned with what he did in the real world. And that's one of the big things in it that balance between the two because, you know, addiction is going to be part of it. You know, all these kind of things are going to be in the mix and heightened concerns. But it's also going to be an amazing place to be creative and collaborate and do really interesting things, you know, and brands that embrace that and think about that and aren't constrained by the platforms we've had before thinking how you don't really want to recreate what you've got already. It could be something very different and we probably don't even know what that might be yet.

Toby Brown: And I think obviously, I think about it in terms of office design and what that might look like in the metaverse. And suddenly, you've got spaces that could be a level of a computer game where you have your tea or, you know, the opportunities for creativity in that space are huge and they don't have to be defined by how we've done things before. And I think the other thing that I'm interested in is you mentioned your avatar and 3D space earlier, but the idea of representation and that's taking another step in how people can represent themselves to feel more aligned with their virtual representation, how they feel inside. So if you're non-binary or you know, you can build an avatar that reflects exactly how you feel about yourself rather than how you look. I think that's really interesting space. But then also, if that's in a workplace scenario, would you have to have rules on what your avatar can look like and dress like? Are you going to have a metaverse dress code? And all these things rush down the pipe quite quickly, don't they, in terms of the details?

Dan Pritchard: Yeah, yeah. And after we plunge in and then you then you think, Oh, actually, you know, assuming the human sort of instinct sometimes. But yeah, you're right and you think about it as workplace culture. You know, there's your organisation, there's the organisations you want to work with. You know, do you want to create a world where your clients can be doing to create a world with, you know, a thousand other companies that you'd really get on with? It's sort of is an individual level, there's an organisational level, there's a brand level, there's interest level. And you know, we're in a world of bricks and mortar and location and nipping out to coffee bars and all those kind of things. Does it have to be the same in the metaverse? Or is it radically different in terms of how we connect and how we appear and how we kind of move around it and interact with it? You know, that is all open, isn't it? And up for debate, and maybe we need comfort in the early versions.

Toby Brown: So yeah, and I think what's going to be really interesting about that is it won't be old farts like me and you creating it. It will be people like your son with a background in programming and Minecraft and building. And the things they create there with that entirely new mindset might be radically different from anything we know. They might be really exciting, but I'll probably be too old to actually understand it.

Dan Pritchard: We'll be in our metaverse retirement home with an ocean lapping forever at out feet. Forever and ever. And some will forget to turn us off even when we've gone. So those people still sitting there nice with their virtual drinks, looking out at the virtual sunset.

Toby Brown: Oh no, I'll have a real drink and a virtual sunset. That'll be fine. Although the Oculus will won’t pick it up, but well…I obviously get the sense you're quite optimistic about what it holds in the long term. What are you most optimistic about and what are you most wary about in the sort of bigger picture?

Dan Pritchard: If you look at some of the platforms that work, have worked in the past, you know, they're the ones that we've created a technology which is easy to access and then we've let the creativity run wild. Yes. And in regulation, other things, you know, look at YouTube. YouTube is a very standard platform, really. But out of that, careers have been made incredible careers that we could not have predicted 10 or 15 years ago around people commenting, commentating, watching games and then commentating on it and have built careers out of that, you know, playing music and becoming DJs at real gigs. So, you know, the platforms that allow the creativity, you know, the human urge to be creative rather than defining it too much and being too narrow are the ones that are going to win. And that's really exciting for me, who loves creativity in work and leisure and play and all the other things. That's the really exciting bit. So that's a bit I'm optimistic about in terms of the platforms or the versions of the Metaverse, where you can look at what goes on in Minecraft and some of the other platforms. It's fantastic. It's amazing.

And the original people who build all that together never could have predicted some of the ways it gets used. That's the exciting bit for me. And of course, from that kind of brand opportunities, et cetera, the scary bit is, is it going to be too centralised and too controlled and too rigid and therefore stifles real opportunity and the dangers and risks around parental control, all those kind of things as well criminality and all those things which are going to go on in the metaverse as they go on in real life and how we can manage that. I have no doubt that that's the direction we had to have been. We've already created these virtual worlds. We have done for decades, really, and it's just how it all comes together. And that's what push and pull between centralisation and control. The big tech giants versus freedom and the things that spring up, who knew TikTok was going to be the video platform now? All the other platforms are learning from, that was not on our radar four years ago? No way. So, yeah, a mix of optimism and pessimism, but mostly optimistic.

Toby Brown: You're very obviously connected into the South West technology network. Are there any people doing interesting work in this space? Anyone who's starting to dabble in the metaverse or put things together that you've come across?

Dan Pritchard: Not really. No. But what we have got is the companies, I suppose, that are doing things leading in so many different spectrums. So we've got companies like Codices that sprung out of  Falmouth Launchpad that is sort of all over Twitch and gaming and creating these technologies. And they will be thinking about the next iteration, next iteration. And when do these things start to play out as their clients increase their interest in these areas? You know, there's companies doing all sorts of things on AI that will be, you know, intelligent AI. And the next step, for example, that will be starting to, you know, they're super brainy people starting to think about this version of it, you know, because there's companies that create these amazing kind of interactive dashboards trying to take loads and loads of reams of information and turn it into something that's manageable and understandable by human beings. You know, there's 3D a metaverse versions of that, but I think I think it's too early in a way.

Toby Brown: So people are just playing in the component parts of it.

Dan Pritchard: Yeah, yeah, which I think is great, you know, and that's what we need. That experiment and play.

Toby Brown: So I began this conversation quite cynical and pessimistic about it. I feel somewhat more optimistic now and quite looking forward to seeing where it is in ten years I guess and certainly exploring some opportunities in it. I guess like the thing, I want it to wrap up on, is you're way more versed in the subject than I am. What is a question that I should have asked or what is a question that we should be discussing that I've just forgotten to include?

Dan Pritchard: For the question you haven't asked? Well, I think it is for brands and marketing. It's what does it mean for brands and we don't know yet. And there'll be this period where brands are sort of, well, the big brands we need to be in there. We see McDonald's and others sort of registering kind of trademarks and rights to be in the metaverse and doing our things, selling our thing. So I think the big question is, is this for everyone or is this is it just for the big players? And the answer to that is there's a question mark. And caveat, of course, is you'd be foolish not to explore it. But timing is everything, right? Early adopters, there's gains and risks around that. So it's not for everyone at this stage, but if that's how we as consumers, as people want to interact and engage in it and be part of our life, just the social platforms are now. Then the rush will happen, won't it? And do you want to be at the forefront of that or at the back of the laggard trying to catch up with your competitors? It's going to be different for different sectors, entertainment gaming right at the forefront of that. But I think every sector, you there's a potential there's going to be in that world.

Toby Brown: Amazing. Cool. That's loads to think about, thanks, Dan. Thank you for coming on and spending time. It's been really interesting. We've been recording this in the middle of the storm, but been fairly uninterrupted by big bricks coming through our window and stuff like that. 

Dan Pritchard: Thing for me when the box of the recording podcast gets turned up and I thought, Well, the metaverse has arrived in a black box just like IT crowd. They had the internet and then I had the metaverse that arrives, complete with a code to break into which I couldn't find about 20 minutes of the metaverse is in there somewhere. 

Toby Brown: Life imitating art imitating life. Beautiful. Thank you very much for coming on.

Dan Pritchard: All the best. 

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